Sue, your message mentions that some Dumbells and perhaps (Rev. for reference) John Dumbell's Grand Father came from Warrington - Flint - North Wales. Forgive me for not having a clear impression in my mind where that is, given that I am on the other side of the world, however I will try to rectify this later with Google maps or such. The Manx notebook mentions that G.W.Dumbell- bank infamy, had relatives, and I recall it says, his father came from the same place, and owned mills there.There is a Johnathan and a John mentioned by Chappel in that location in the caption from Manx note book. The name John, although popular, keeps turning up and my simple search stratagies are being confused. What to do? perhaps I should return to simple pen and paper and build a time line. Is the mention of these same places in both Dumbell cases worth pursuing. Please let me have your thoughts.