Hi Folks,

I only went on line a few minutes ago, as Anastasia was fairly energetic all day, and keen to say hi to her "sissa" who she now calls Akis-aa, which is her revision of Alexandra. Unfortunately she is getting us into the habit too !

As regards the two Philip Joughins born in Andreas. I think the comments that have appeared since 1.29pm have more or less cleared that up, but there were the two boys born in 1768 and 1770. Goodwin who did a lot of good work sometimes got it a bit wrong, and he found a Philip living with John Joughin & family in the 1841 census, but was unware of two Andreas boys of the same name. He only knew of the 1768 boy, so he presumably guessed it was the right guy, but did not find any son John.

The actual John was christened at Andreas on 26-7-1770 per the register and married Christian Lace on 10 Nov 1791 at Andreas. His parents were John Joughin of Leodest, bap 3 Aug 1716 at Andreas and ANN(e) Joughin bap 9 May 1731 Andreas. I DO NOT HAVE THE DATE OF THEIR MARRIAGE, but Ann was his second wife, the first wife Joney Crenilt, Crinnol (or any of a variety of alternative spellings, and I would like to know which is CORRECT) was baptised in 1715, married in 1740 and died in 1750, so Ann(e) must have married after 1751. She was buried 25-Feb 1785 and her will exists in th Manx Museum.

I had gone back another couple of generations on Anne Joughin's side but was somewhat bogged down as there were two Joughin families in Andreas, and whilst I felt I was probably right it was no more than that.

Sue and Mona Creer are the undoubted experts in this field, so they can probably clarify things better than I can, but I hope this helps.

Apart from the comment in the thread about the German register being a bit messy, the other comment is that the IGI is a wonderful tool, BUT, contains plenty of errors, and I have often been unable to find people who I know existed, but vanish off the radar as far as the iGI is concerned. ALso there are periodic duplicate entries.

As regards duplicate entries, John Joughin of 1803 or 1804 is just such as case. He appears in the parish register with the same parents in 1803 and 1804, separated by less than 9 months. To my mind this gives a couple of possibilities. It may be that the 1803 child was born in early 1803. but was sickly so was not hazarded with a baptism, but worsened and one was hastily arranged on 18 July 1803, and he died shortly thereafter. Meanwhile Christian Lace was expecting another child and when he arrived in 1804, they used the name John for the second time. Some families did not re-use a name for fear of bad luck, but others would reuse a name. AT this time the Joughins seem to have been inclined to re-use names, as John's daughter Mary Ann Joughin, had a child Josephine Annie in 1868. She died in 1870, and a second Josephine Annie was born in 1873. The sister to both Josephine Annie girls, Christiana Frances married Arthur Brown, andthey had a son, Arthur, in 1890, and took him to a Peel photographer for the routine official photo, but the child got pneumonia and died aged three months, and the name was NOT repeated. Maybe Christiana recalled her two sisters, for I think the second Josephine Annie died young as well.

Two children, one dying early with a belated christening provides a plausible answer for 1803-1804, but a late christening, in which the actual date of the christening appears in the register, and the other date is not a christening at all but a date of birth is feasible, but the transcript of the register in the museum does not provide any firm evidence that this was so.

I hope this helps, but if there is anything more, let me know.