thanks brian and donna, the jane i am looking at was daughter to william kelly born 1813 kirk michael and margaret roberts born in wales,their daughter jane was born in england in1842 she had an illigitimate daughter margaret in 1860 and married cleve mcneil in kirk michael june 30th 1861, then jane and cleve had cleveclucas mcneil in 1862 baptized june 29th same year at st matthews douglas , alfred in 1868 in douglas ,alfred married annie weeks 2nd quarter 1893 in marylebone,jane and cleve had a daughter mary jane in 1877 in douglas then jane is a widow in 1881 and later married a joseph crellin and says she is a widow and i cannot find cleves death anywhere or even cleve alive? cleve mcneil was born in douglas in 1842/3 to john mcneil and margaret clucas and on one census it looks like clare ,i am now looking all over the place and still cannot find him