Len - Thank you. Your info. looks hopeful. I mentioned Liverpool as my grandfather James born 1856 in Douglas was living in Liverpool with his family on the 1881, 1891 & 1901 census and I think he is on the 1871 census in Liverpool aged 14 and an apprentice joiner with his father James senior (a groom)and his new family - wife Sarah. My dad said that although his father James - born 1856 - was a master builder he used to go back to the IoM during the summer to run the "Toast Rack" so that seemed to "fit in". This is the only census I have that it doesn't say that he was born in the IoM - hence my doubts. Thanks - Shirley.