with the help and patience of this board , averil- sue and joan in particular, my fathers family has been traced to australia [ of whom im now in touch with ] liverpool and now ireland,I would not have got this sorted with out them, i know i have took time and space up by it all but finding my fathers past is so important to me, when my father passed away i made a promise to my self i would find his family, there was more to my dad than just the family that brought him up, a family who lives and knows the truth but will not tell, so i started on my road to find his past, i am sorry if you think that this is a saga, i will stop now and do my own searching some where else,, Thank you board for all your help,