EXACTLY Frances. It is USE of the material which is in question, NOT copying a page of something. Using of the information is NOT under copyright UNLESS you copy it in the format it is presented. Therefore as I said in my last posting it is not the information which is under copyright, it is the presentation in which it is given that is.

If I copied a page from the phone book and put that in my book or on my webpage, exactly as presented, THEN I would be in breach of the law. Extracting the information and utilising it in a way that suits my situation is NOT breaking the law. But the copyright law as I am being challenged with by a member of the coummunity who has seen what I am doing is that I should get permission to utilise the information which I am extracting from the phone book for my genealogy purposes. I am NOT copying a page, just extracting a few names and places and putting them in my own list format.

In the case of doing genealogy, which usually involves names, dates & places, I can go to a book, a website or wherever, gather the information from that source, utilise it in my database (in the case of family history information), in my format.And as I said before, many have done that from my genealogy charts in A QUOTA OF QUALTROUGHS. Or in the case of text, I restructure it in such a way to suit my occasion, but acknowledge the source. I would not be breaking copyright to do this. And I don't have to seek permission to do so. Acknowledge yes, permission no.

If we are in this genealogy game only to put material out there in the public arena for people to use,and then spend the rest of our lives wasting it in a court of law trying to prove that "I OWN THAT MATERIAL", and "it cannot be used without my permission being sought" and ensuring the filling of our bank accounts on that ownership, then our motives for presenting it to the public in the first place need to be questioned. Are we genuinely interested in improving the betterment of Society by contributing our genealogy knowledge to it or are we so concerned with our being paid and in doing so loose sight of what it is all about.

Frankly I have better things to do with my time than proving ownership, creating a mentality of division, right/wrong etc. I would far rather spend my time doing what my heart desires - putting all the genealogy knowledge and material I have gained in the public arena so that others out there can benefit by it - just for the sake of it, and the satisfaction: not for financial gain. I don't expect to recoup my financial costs. And genealogy has cost me thousands and thousand over the years. But the satisfaction over-rides in all instances the need to be repaid.

I have found that hearts desires rarely mix with financial gains. Somehow the seeking of financial gain taints a benevolent attitude. But that is another subject and not for this forum.

If I spent my time needing to go to such lengths as to prove piracy as you suggest and then needing to go to a court of law to prove it with this so-called perfect proof, then my heart would soon go out of genealogy and my hearts desire to make my time and effort and work available for others, now and in the future would become tainted. I just couldn't be bothered with it all.

I don't need the recognition thankfully for the work I have done and am doing. I am quite happy now to just doing it and let it stand. I acknowledge that this is a recent shift in my perspective, and I am very happy and comfortable with it.

And I don't agree with you that few things in life are free (your last posting). Attitude, good-will, perspective, gratitude, benevolence, and many like things are all free. I would prefer to equate my genealogical desires on the side of these and other similar freely available qualities rather than spend my time ensuring I got my dollars worth.

Elizabeth Feisst, Australia.